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Subject Topic: "Peptization" or "Salting-In" Post ReplyPost New Topic
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DavidR
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 11:43am | IP Logged Quote DavidR

Not a single comment on the topic at hand!  What causes "salting-in" "salting-out" effects in polypeptides?  At low salinity (ionic strenght) , longer ranged electrostatic saline links (between the more distantly associated triple helix components, jello) are shielded by the Debye-Hückel ionic screening, and the links are decoupled to yield separated cationic amino-sidegroups (R-NH3+) and anionic carboxyl  (R'-COO-) capable of interacting with chemicals, including the solvent.  At higher ionic strenghts the discharging because of dehydration of the zwitterion's environment, causes saline links to decouple as well, but into electrostatically inactive aminos (R-NH2 and carboxylic acid groups R'-COOH) that do not contribute to solubility or general electrostatic reactivity.  Thus solubility curves of aminoacids and peptides display the familiar parabolic curves with increasing ionic strenght.  Manipulation of ionic strenght can be then used to control astringency of the involved electrostatic chemical groups in Collagen reactions.  Notice that this annalisis does not require the mastering of the thermodynamics of "Chaos Theory"!  Anybody in doubt of the existance of charged acid and basic groups in aminoacids, peptides and proteins, please see the interptretation of titration curves by acid/base in an elementary textbook, no need for very complex theories is involved!

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kallenwe
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 1:51pm | IP Logged Quote kallenwe

Now I know how my students feel!  Recently I was preaching up a storm to a young, uneducated man who had asked a question about chemistry and I lauched into a long, intense speech.  About two words into my emotional expression my wife smacked me upside the head and said, "he doesn't know what atoms are."  Sort of took the wind out of my sail, if you know what I mean.  Clearly I was talking to the wall, this guy was completely at a loss for any understanding of my rambling. 

Often my class gives me this blank look and I realize that I have done it to them also.  Intensely and excitedly trying to explain some small point only to see clearly that they did not understand word one.  All to quickly I forget that they are at a different point in their experience than I am, that they don't share my enthusiasm for certain subtle points and that my extensive explanations are just hot air whistling past their tuned out ears. 

Guess I got screened out by the Debeye-Huckel concept, or just plain lost focus when a bird flitted past my window.



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DavidR
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 9:14pm | IP Logged Quote DavidR

I had assumed that many members of the forum have had lower division P-Chem course under their caps!  The Debye-Hückel solution theory is at least 75 years old and hardly any more sophisticated than all other nanotopics being posted!  I appreciate your posting to put me in a proper perspective of just how things really are.  I suppose nobody gives a damn about salting-in/salting-out of collagen then, or is in a position to consider it.  Needless to say, salted-out collagen can easily be dyed through, and the solution to the problem of a dye not going through, as by adding some salt, preferably Glaubber's salt, is not of interest to the usual forum members!

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zercas
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 12:39am | IP Logged Quote zercas

I do care what you say David, I respect your knowledge and experience, but some times I get lost with your words. I repeat my posting from two days ago

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Zercas

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Posted: February 10 2010 at 3:27pm | IP Logged Quote zercas

These principles have helped me choose the varing strategy application conditions for chemicals that achieve better exhaustion as well as penetration and levelness of dyeing and other charged chemicals when desired.

Well, if thinking with that lingo helps you to make good leather,what can I say, GOOD FOR YOU, KEEP ON DOING IT.

I am sorry I can not follow your line of though, maybe I got too far out of my own box 

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kallenwe
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 6:41am | IP Logged Quote kallenwe

The point is not that no one cares, the point is that the terms used do not lead to interest or comprehension.  Just like we noted  earlier, if I don't grasp colloids, or don't think they are relavant, the first mention of colloids diverts my focus to something more likely to be meaningful or interesting.  It does not matter that they are relavant and meaningful because I will not give the topic a chance having the perception that it is too hard, too different, too anything for me to do the work to put it into useful context. 

Salting-in and salting-out of peptides?  It does not seem reasonable or meaningful, yet we both know that the concept behind those words are very important and meaningful, but how to make it appealing or meaningful?  That may be just semantics shift to put it into perspective for a tanner, who by the way is lucky to have any chemistry, and certainly does not even know what P-chem or peptides are, let alone have basic understanding of them. 

We all have ego sensitivities, but in this medium it is more in our head than in the reality of the interaction.  No seeing each other person to person really impacts the behavior, response, even intention of the interaction.  Don't let it under your skin (that was a pun...ha, ha). 



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